[guest]

Hello

I would be grateful for this community’s help. I’d like to know what MOT testers think of noise regulations.

I’m the founder of #Exhausted, a newly-formed interest group looking at the issue of unnecessary exhaust noise, particularly from modified and sports exhausts. #Exhausted was mentioned in this week’s Sunday Times.

I’m a car and bike enthusiast myself, and I don’t wish to demonise anyone. Rather I’m speaking out for people with particular sensitivity to noise, such as those with autism and PTSD – or indeed anyone who lives near a road, which is most of us.

Crucially, there seems to be a disconnect between the undoubted expertise of MOT testers and what we can all hear on the streets. The problem seems to be getting worse. What’s causing it?

I’d like to find out how much of it is due to the manufacturers, the MOT rules or illegality among owners.

May I ask:

* What can be done about it, without making testers jobs a nightmare?

* Are the rules easy for you to implement, or vague?

* Should engines be revved much harder during the test? Owners can red-line their engines, but testers are not supposed to. Can that be right?

* “Cheat devices”: do you know of any, particularly from OEMs and after-market manufacturers?

* Does every test station have decibel meters?

* Where is the system most frequently abused?

Some enthusiasts will think I’m a jerk, but I’m not doing this just for me. Some people with autism really do suffer with traffic noise; some cannot speak for themselves and the tester community is uniquely placed to help me to help them. I’d love to know your thoughts.

Thanks,

Jason
#Exhausted
p.. please forgive if I cross-post this in the bike section too – I gather the bike & cars regs are very different.

[castrolrob]

speaking as a car tester no we dont use noise meters,used to do rallying and the decibel limit(checked by the local authority as some stages were on public roads)was 105.5 db @ 500rpm.we as testers get told that as long as its got a box of some sort we essentially have to pass it unless its at wake the neighbours sorta level,we dont get a set noise limit its purely subjective and the opinion of the tester concerned.in real world use most vehicles that still have a cat/turbo wont be loud enuff for us to fail,most of the anti social ones probably werent fitted at test or more likely have a-lets say-sympathetic one,cheats?theres loads ranging from switchable power levels to exhaust cutouts.as you can see the rules such as they are can be misused/widely interpreted.revving engines to the red line during the test?(im assuming petrol here)we are responsible for any damage/costs caused by such actions so unless youre volunteering to come round and buy em a new engine…

[castrolrob]

sorry,shud read 5000rpm

[guest]

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply, Castrolrob.

I should have guessed that you guys are on the hook if you break someone’s engine. That rule doesn’t seem fair on you, or on society!

Having researched it, I have been genuinely surprised by how the MOT rules allow for so much discretion, subjective judgement and (sometimes) inaccuracy. We can hear the result, when we open our windows! Not your fault, of course. Still, I think many car and bike enthusiasts don’t appreciate how much distress noise can cause.

And exhaust noise is not just upsetting to a “weird few”. Rather, I’ve sensed that mainstream public opinion has shifted on this issue, possibly because the roads are getting louder, meaning our homes are getting louder too. The internet has made it easier to get hold of naughty exhausts, and social media has made that seem like a harmless and normal thing to do.

Can I ask you two more questions?

1) Would decibel-limit testing be hard to administer for you guys?

2) If an MOT tester were put in charge of reducing exhaust noise, what policies would you bring in? Any new policies would need to be realistic for you guys and acceptable to politicians too: massive step-changes in the rules are always a tough sell. But what about little tweaks to the rules that might make a big difference? Can you think of any?

Thanks a million for taking an interest in this.

[castrolrob]

realistically its unenforceable but i will have a bash.first when new equipment is required the ministry dont cough for it,we do so measuring eqpmnt will cost us.second every make/model vehicle has has different max rev requirements which means that unless you can watch EVERY tester carrying out EVERY TEST just to make sure theyve revved it is a non starter let alone the below mentioned damage risks.what you are essentially asking is for every sports type vehicle to be banned.take a look at how much a ferrari for instance costs in tax let alone vat.dunno if you had noticed but the gvmnt have had whats perhaps best described as an expensive and difficult time just lately so aint gonna be keen on earning less.the key is enforcement of the available laws.this requires police.police require wages,wages cost money-refer to my previous answer.finally i live on a busy main road.my local demographic results in a lot of kids hiring the above mentioned ferraris and similar on weddings and such and ragging the crap outta em up and down the carriageway,all very loud and all with fully manufactured and eu approved emissions/exhaust systems,you think your local boy racer with his bass bin and a member of the wind section of the london philharmonic strapped to his rear bumper is loud?try a PROPER sports car.the police dont seem keen to act…..as a final footnote the resulting ambulance flying down the road shortly afterwards with an equally loud siren(i am assured this is normal and legal!)is a frequent occurence.the accompanying flashing lights dont do the local epileptics a lot of favours either…..

[guest]

Brilliant answer, but I’m not pushing for a ban on loud vehicles.

Instead, I’m looking to see whether it would be politically and technically realistic to tax vehicles by their noise output (in addition to Co2 etc). If we can do it for Co2, can’t we do it for decibels too?

It would help recoup some of the badly-needed money you mention, but it would also help to focus the owners minds on how badly they want a loud car.

When you gather Co2 data now, presumably it is uploaded directly from the test machines to the DVLA? I’m saying let’s do the same for decibels, and tax accordingly.

I appreciate some might think it all a waste of time and just more grief for testers, but I hope you follow my logic, if not my conclusions!

[castrolrob]

as a further addendum.theyve just finished fitting a kids own exhaust an a car i tested last week,standard trombone fare,still not quite loud enuff for me to fail anyway(theres a limit to how much noise you can extract from a 1.o litre corsa)so its just a bit loud rather than offensive if you get me.i aint even gonna see it for a test for 12 mnths am i?however i also bring glad tidings!electric cars are becoming more common indeed theres a movement afoot to make em louder so they stop running over guide dogs/pensioners or indeed the dumb fucks who think their current playlist is far more important than actually looking where theyre going resulting in some blameless guy on his way to work being traumatised by squishing someones little darling who werent doing anything wrong honest!so give it a decade or so for natural wastage to reduce the amount of petrol cars to a minimal level and problem solved.unfortunately at this point mcds carpark will be full of mummys little darlings dragging in their 1 ton soundsystem complete with stage lights on a trailer(cos thatll be the fashion then)resulting in em pissing off everyone till the battery on the 20 yr old prius theyre driving gives out.remember you heard it here first.do i give the impression im not taking this seriously enuff?sorry….

[castrolrob]

[user=20970]#Exhausted[/user] wrote:
[quote]Brilliant answer, but I’m not pushing for a ban on loud vehicles.

Instead, I’m looking to see whether it would be politically and technically realistic to tax vehicles by their noise output (in addition to Co2 etc). If we can do it for Co2, can’t we do it for decibels too?

It would help recoup some of the badly-needed money you mention, but it would also help to focus the owners minds on how badly they want a loud car.

When you gather Co2 data now, presumably it is uploaded directly from the test machines to the DVLA? I’m saying let’s do the same for decibels, and tax accordingly.

I appreciate some might think it all a waste of time and just more grief for testers, but I hope you follow my logic, if not my conclusions![/quote]they already do.its called roadtax.the only cars you can get real noise outta are the ones that actually had any power to begin with hence my below quoted pos corsa.a focus st for instance is about 300 sheets to tax and most motors played with by the boost brigade are on a par.whats stopping em bolting on what they like between tests?ive already got a few scoobys etc that get their cat bolted on,pass the emissions test,get their ticket then take it all off and turn the boost back up.and no our emissions data isnt linked direct to the ministry tho i have no doubt that sooner or later it will be(at OUR cost naturally)and none of this stops the guys who just get a moody ticket to begin with which is what most of the serious modders do.this takes us straight back to enforcement does it not?there are already laws covering this sorta thing and if they aint already being enforced(the current diesel test fiasco for instance) then we as testers aint got a hope.you could always try for a change in primary legislation to prevent kids being kids.good luck with that.

[guest]

Thanks for filling me in about uploading data to DVLA.

I’m pushing for:

– taxing cars by decibels in addition to existing factors, such as co2.

– uploading decibel scores direct to DVLA.

– big increase in penalties for active deception e.g swapping out exhausts between MOT.

– big increase in on-the-spot-fines for non-compliant exhausts.

– removing tester’s discretion for noise assessment. Vehicle noise ought not to exceed type approval, and if no type approval records exist then it ought not to exceed a given amount of decibel output.

I totally agree with you that police enforcement has a big role to play (I’m asking the police these questions too!). But if we say that the police are there to catch burglars and rapists, then what should we say MOT testers are there for? Surely the answer is “…keeping cars safe and legitimate”

There’s nothing I can do about corruption in the MOT tester community. I assume it goes on, but I don’t know how widespread it is. I would have thought that when MOT data eventually is uploaded direct to DVLA then it will be easy to spot moody testers, statistically speaking.

I’m about to find out whether people really do want quieter roads, or whether it’s just me and a few others. Are you a betting man? 🙂 If my proposed changes don’t happen, it’ll be because politicians think there are no votes in it. I could accept that, but I don’t accept that there is no technical/practical way to do it. Testing for Co2 was surely a much bigger hill to climb, but you guys did it.

I agree with you that kids will simply move on to asserting their existence in other ways. I’ll leave that one to others to solve!

[castrolrob]

we currently test diesel engines to the manufacturer speecified smoke limit unless not available in which case we test to a(generally much more lenient)default limit.this limit is in different places of variable visibility or is indeed not displayed at all.we have yet to even be given instructions on where its likely to be on a given vehicle(because none of us is an expert on EVERY vehicle out there)so you would think we would be given this info via the mot system from the guys who type approved it in the first place but despite repeated requests for same nothing.all a vehicle owner has to do is destroy/deface this limit and it gets tested to default.this has gone on for about 3 yrs now,please take the time to read thru matters of testing blog where your concerns and many others have been raised by us as a trade and utterly ignored(pleas keep in mind that the posts you will be reading were the ones that WERENT moderated).given we now have a 3 yr delay on basic important stuff like people being able to breathe(including us!)what do you think the hopes of us getting db info are?2-3 yrs at best to implement,2-3 yrs to have any realistic effect at which point the cars concerned will be fading from the roads anyway.sorry to keep pissing on your bonfire but near 40 yrs of being baked on the free range oven that is the dept of transport leads me to believe your entire concept will be kicked into the long grass if anyone ever pays anymore than lip service to it in the first place.i hope as ver to be proved wrong but dont get your hopes up on that,its a pretty rare occurence.

[guest]

You’ve been very helpful, because you’ve showed me where the rub is, and where I’d have to start in order to make changes.

And you’ve tipped me off about Testing Matters, which will prove hugely useful – I’d never heard of it.

That’s not pissing on anyone’s bonfire! 🙂

Thanks very much again, CastrolRob

[guest]

One thing I’d add: it’s impossible to know whether electric cars will soon reach mass adoption or whether they are very far away.

Having owned an EV, my guess is that mass adoption is unlikely in my lifetime (I’m 52). Most homes don’t have off-street parking and the public charging network is grim, thanks to all the bureaucracy that you rightly say will also be an obstacle to me in the matter of noise.

Still, remember the name!

Exhausted.org.uk

[castrolrob]

in the absence of a major change in battery technology(cos in terms of weight/range etc we are still at a similar level to the 19th century)then long term usage is likely to be hydrogen fuel cells or similar although the power rqmnts for generating hydrogen are gonna require in all likelihood summat along the lines of workable fusion power.that is at least possible,look at the sky with that bright glowy object for a simple confirmation!hydrocarbons are a limited resource and grow ever rarer and bio fuels will require agriculture on a scale thats likely to impact food production so i dont see that ever being more than a niche but keep in mind some countries are and will be banning i c vehicles in the near future

[guest]

[Paul S]

Stand to be corrected as always but a Smartphone app ref MoT testing decibel-limit being hard to administer.. all we would have to do is punch in the rpm but as rob has already pointed out its been over 2 years & we aint even got the diesel smoke plate limits https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/805940/roadside-vehicle-noise-measurement-phase-1-study-report-and-technology-recommendations.pdf
page 16.. just a thought 😯

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